We have few people with multiple Skills, and each one of them with multiple skills all turn up.
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I’d love to see you provide a concrete reason for fearing the removal of the cap rather than basing it on a “bad feeling” you have. You talk of a “better solution”, but what is the cap even solving to begin with? “Its never a good thing to harvest crops that are not fully grown.” By this logic, we should just get rid of all rewards. Or if you insist on a cap instead, why not lower the cap from 30k to just 30? You’ve yet to give a clear reason for the cap and what it is supposed to accomplish. You imply that removing it would cause a “financial crisis” without explaining how this would happen.
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I’m not suggesting getting rid of all rewards, I’m saying we don’t want to give out too much grape, we want to create a balance but you’re saying if you’ve worked for it you definitely should be getting it, I’m sure you are aware that we have multiple skill roles and the more skill roles you have, the more you earn based on how much work you put in each of those skill roles, if someone had 7 of these and was earning about 100k grape cos he’s so good at it and 10 others decide to follow in his footsteps and more people keep reaching for that, how do you balance that?
Do you reduce the emissions of all the skill roles
Do you limit the number of skill roles
Do you leave it like that cos it doesn’t matter and it’ll never affect the prize? Which it definitely will?
I need you to explain to me how tiers will solve the problem of people who have earned top tiers in multiple sub daos from earning an infinite amount of grape for every epoch
I need you to show me the how you can balance that
The fact that you are the highest earning member doesn’t mean someone can’t exceed that number, it doesn’t mean that’s the limit, so what is the limit then. Where is the balance in that?
When does it get to a point where we say ok you’ve earned an outrageous amount of grape, we have to put a limit on this?
Or in your defense you’ll say again
No I’ve earned it, I should be given it, you might as well earn the total supply if that’s your logic.
If the top tier of all the subdaos is fixed then we have a potential cap, which is the total number of Grape emissions for all the sub dao top tiers in the community, if that is calculated we need to calculate that amount * the total number of people with skill roles which will give us the max amount of Grape that could possibly be released for skill roles emissions each epoch, take that number, as potential as it is and ask yourself
Is this even one-tenth sustainable, even if it’s potential it doesn’t mean we should ignore the numbers, do we really want people aiming for that?
So tell me sir, isn’t this enough for a bad feeling?
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Do you reduce the emissions of all the skill roles
Do you limit the number of skill roles
Do you leave it like that cos it doesn’t matter and it’ll never affect the prize?
As I wrote earlier, how much the DAO allocates to skill role emissions is a totally different topic from whether individuals should have a cap. I think you are conflating the two. If you don’t want too much GRAPE in total to be given out, then control it at the top, not at the individual level.
I need you to explain to me how tiers will solve the problem of people who have earned top tiers in multiple sub daos from earning an infinite amount of grape for every epoch
Sure. The amount of GRAPE that can be earned isn’t infinite because each subDAO is only allocated a finite amount each epoch.
When does it get to a point where we say ok you’ve earned an outrageous amount of grape, we have to put a limit on this?
I’m certainly not earning an outrageous amount. Try comparing it to the circulating supply. But also, by this logic, should we put limits on the amount of GRAPE people can buy off the market? Of course, that’s silly. By the same reasoning, those who work harder for the protocol should have a greater stake in the protocol. If an individual is earning 50% of all emissions each epoch, okay sure maybe we should try to decentralize more. But it’s nothing like that.
If the top tier of all the subdaos is fixed then we have a potential cap, which is the total number of Grape emissions for all the sub dao top tiers in the community, if that is calculated we need to calculate that amount * the total number of people with skill roles which will give us the max amount of Grape that could possibly be released for skill roles emissions each epoch, take that number, as potential as it is and ask yourself
This hypothetical scenario is irrelevant because we all know that no one will ever achieve this status.
Anyhow, my most important point is the one I made at the top of this post.
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I think the most important thing I’m laying emphasis on is the last part, you just said it’s hypothetical which is absolutely incorrect, hypothetical and potential are not even close to the same thing, well do the math yourself and tell me I’m wrong when I say potential amount of grape, I’m not thinking short term sir, I’m looking at a span of 5 years, what do you mean by Individual level anyways, I mean just every decision made by the Dao affects everyone at an individual level like it or not, I feel like you don’t want to be limited, what you just told me now is since it’s going to be very difficult to earn such a potential amount of Grape we shouldn’t talk about it, Difficult doesn’t mean impossible and just to be clear everything you’ve said is a repetition of what you’ve been saying and it doesn’t answer any of these questions I’ve asked. 1. You claim this is your most important point, well I’m not conflicting anything, whatever amount that will ever be allocated by the subdao is going to be resulting in a potential cap per individual and per epoch. The sub Dao level can’t control that potential amount to a significant or reasonable amount unless of course they reduce it drastically which will in turn make the emissions too low or to reasonable an amount.
2.The finite amount allocated each epoch still results in a potential cap, this poses the same problem
3. Those who work for the protocol should have a higher stake but you haven’t still explained how we put a limit on that or we should leave it at infinite? Which takes us to the first and second point of your argument
4. The hypothetical scenario : Its not hypothetical, its potential, which means it’s possible although it might be incredibly difficult to achieve but based on the current system it’s potential.
We don’t have a potentially infinite amount of Grape existing , we shouldn’t have a potentially infinite amount of grape being distributed
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You’re confusing the use of the word “cap”. What’s being discussed here is a global cap per individual. We’re not talking about how much subDAOs decide to distribute to their members. That’s up to each subDAO.
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There’s no problem. If you read what I’ve written in the original discussion thread, that’s what I advocated for – that emissions be policed at the subDAO level.
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I don’t think there is a need for an artificial limit. I especially don’t think there is a need for this arbitrarily rather than quantitatively chosen 30k limit that was erected for a purpose but no longer serves that purpose (see original thread).
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No one can feasibly contribute in every subDAO at the highest level. No one has that amount of skill nor time. If you think this is false, perhaps you aren’t paying attention to the quality of output that’s being produced. Can others chime in here and agree with me here? The claim is simply silly.
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There’s no confusion on my side, what is being discussed is the removal of global cap which possess s certain risks and problems that I’ve highlighted 2 posts ago but you’ve continuously dismissed as an argument which makes me wonder if you don’t have a reply to that or you choose to ignore the facts I’m stating entirely.
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I’m not talking about policing emissions as that’s not going to solve the problem of how to limit the potential amount of grape a person can earn, it’s even more complex because the potential amount still remains the sum of the top tiers of all sub daos which I stated earlier
I’ve asked you again how you can solve this problem but your response is ‘it’s not possible, it’s hypothetical’ but it’s not impossible sir, there’s no law, no rule that makes it impossible, it’s only difficult
Currently there’s no one who has the skill or time but when such a thing happens in the future, how do you solve that or we just say because it’s extremely difficult to achieve let’s not consider it?
I need you to prove to me why it’s impossible not just saying it’s impossible cos it’s difficult
And simply saying it’s silly, I don’t know what to say to you, I’m just stating the facts here and I’m trying to do the maths as well
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I’m against removing cap, but also against putting a static cap for everyone, I think the best option lies somewhere in between, I think we should have a dynamic algorithm to adjust the cap according to activity and different roles, And by activity, I don’t mean the number of discord messages, As it would be unfair to the guys who spent several hours to make a, for example, videography and post the result in just one message. I think we should have some kind of score sheet in every subDAO. The result of this algorithm can vary for example between 30K and 70 K, so the meritocracy is not hurt, and the most important factor IMHO, As I said in the last week DAO call, is the keeping tokens from the last epoch, I think It should have a high weight in the rewarding algorithm, As we have seen the price drops after each epoch emission. and I think we should reward the ones who believe in the project in long run and don’t sell all their rewards right away.
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- Huh?
- I’m saying let’s not target our policies toward edge cases.
Someone earlier or in the original thread made the same point. Also, even if everyone could earn max amount for all roles, I don’t see a problem. They earn it.
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- Still no response so I can conclude that there’s no response from you on that
- If you don’t see a problem, it’s because you’re thinking of it as maybe only one person, I want you to think of it as many persons, how do you control that?
Is it going to be sustainable long term?
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- “Huh?” means I don’t know what you’re referring to, so I’m giving you the opportunity to clarify.
- I am thinking about Grape as a whole and what will benefit it most. Value creation > good distribution. If you have a good distribution of tokens but the protocol isn’t creating value, it won’t matter. If it’s the reverse, however, there will be some level of centralization but people will still come because you’re providing value.
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Nobody is gonna earn more than is allocated to each subDAO… I believe there’s a huge misunderstanding here… for instance each community creator earns 20k grape and researchers same and some has both role and worked real hard it’s bad to give him 30k grape because of a cap, I believed he should be getting 40k grape instead… the infinite is more like an exaggerated word used… if someone has 4 role and did everything right, he gets the full allocation in each subDAO he/she represents. This should be the case…
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My 2 grapes, It would be very unfortunate for GRAPE as a whole to lose staff that is putting in the work and setting a standard for others to follow.
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What I mean by infinite is undetermined and over a span of 5years, it’s still undetermined weather the potential amount of grape that can be distributed as we see more people with skill roles is even possible without having a cap, my question is by removing a cap, what is your solution to that, will we see a continuous decrease in the subdao emissions cause we’re exceeding the budget of each epoch, Infinite doesn’t end at 4 roles or max roles, because there’s no cap we have this underlying problem of managing the emissions long term I’ve highlighted my calculations in the previous threads. I’m not exaggerating, it’s just simple logic, we don’t have that problem now but it’s a possibility and like I said earlier we’re still growing. The cap solves all these complexities but before you remove it you should be ready to approach all this factors head on rather than try to dismiss them, they’re key factors, they’re not irrelevant, they count towards seeing a financially stable community. I want you all to start thinking of this long term and ask yourself again and again, Is it sustainable?
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wow the percentages are crazy!!
I believe we succeeded in connecting each other with a great platform.
Now the problem with “cap/no cap” has to be followed with another addition in the proposal to find a true meaning.
What i mean is that:
If keep cap for each role , then we should add a feature where if designers and various roles within grape cooperate to create value by creating a NFT or creating something valuable for the community then to share more rewards somehow.
There could be a cap but if the user adds further value to Grape then he gets the % he is entitled.
I’m thinking something similar i did with Pertsmoons back in summer.
I utilized various designers to create something and we created value.
I don’t know if i am wrong tho 
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I already explained this earlier, but no it’s impossible to exceed the budget. A subDAO can’t just request as much GRAPE as they want each epoch. There is already a “cap” at the DAO level for each epoch, it’s just a question of how it’s distributed. And this cap is totally unrelated to the cap being voted on.
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How does subDAO emissions decrease ? I believe you not really getting the subject matter here… Every SubDAO has monthly cap which @Whale_s_Friend posted on discourse few weeks ago. This cap is the maximum everyone can get in a single epoch, we can’t have a Cap at SubDAO level and still have a Cap at the DAO level meaning I cannot work hard and meet up my Requirements of gaining my full grape reward and then the DAO says I should be capped. Every epoch we all have SubDAO budgets, and in some months the unused grapes are being sent back to the treasury. I don’t see a reason why the word “Infinite” and “Undetermined” came into this subject matter… you would would to elaborate more on what u mean by that.
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Thanks both of you for this discussion; I had missed the point that the total amount can be capped by the subdaos and its only the “individuals” cap you are seeking to remove.
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As i voted for a cap, the only fundamental i based on was for having enough emissions or at decent to last at 5 years.
Cause we don’t know what might happen from now on till then, multiple subDAO’s will flourish others will cease to existe, multiple roles will appear others will disapppear. So in my opinion having a cap is what we should have for now.
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we should find some way to make it more streamlined to invite the members to vote more actively. we need more focused and effective delivery of important messages of the group to the members is suggested. Many messages are exchanged in the discord server, but hard to read through all. More focus on deliveries please.
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